April 4, 2008
Devotees buy milk from the store and offer it to Krishna, and then take the remnants, somehow feeling that they have transformed it into milk from cows like these:
Unfortunately, in the real world, it doesn’t work like that. When the cow no longer gives enough milk, off she goes. Go watch this video to see what happens to her:
Captain Beefheart and The Magic Band’s “Sugar ‘n Spikes”
Frankly, I don’t get the association of the song with the video, but here are the lyrics from it:
Sugar ‘n spikes ‘n neon lights
‘n walks ‘n lights ‘n chains coughin’ smoke whoopin’ hope
Cardinal sky rush by falls bark in dark
Fall back in dark
Pies steam stale shoes move broom ‘n pale
Moon in uh dime store sale
Sugar ‘n spikes ‘n everything nice ‘n everything nice ‘n crazy
That’s what little worlds are made of lady
I’m paid up in home in ‘m new Friday’s house
There’s no H on my faucet there’s no bed for m’ mouse
My punch ‘n grow mind in diamond back time
Now it’s king for uh day with my lady look fine
Got m’ peakin’ up hat ‘n my caramel mask
Tremelo car got m’ speidel wrist round m’ honey
Goin’ t’ see the navy blue vicar
Paul Peter ‘n misses wray flicker
Anybody could give me a purport , please chime in. However, the process of how cows end up is the same regardless of the meaning of the lyrics.
Still, there is one transitional alternative if you are drinking industrial milk — support cow protection. Here is an old ox still alive years past his normal butchering time:
If you are looking for a cow protection program, consider donating to GEETA and help support this ox and many others. He is real and will appreciate it.
April 10, 2008 at 2:47 pm
1. Devotees don’t transform bhoga into prasadam. Krishna does that when He accepts the offerind, right? Are you saying He rejects devotees’ offerings of milk from regular cows?
2. I’ve never seen a Vaukintha chariot come down for a cow (or anyone else), but your argument supposes that they do not benefit spiritually when their milk is offered to Krishna. That’s hard to believe.
3. Are you equating the material body with the soul, like the Christians who think wealth is proof of spiritual blessing?
4. Why did Srila Prabhupada never advocate a vegan diet, even temporarily while developing cow protection? Do you suppose he did not realize that abuse of cows would increase in kali yuga?
Incidentally, I protect a pregnant cow who lives at my home with a few protected sheep and goats.
Hare Krishna
April 11, 2008 at 5:46 am
1. I am saying it isn’t the best possible way, that that is a field expedient measure and there are better alternatives.
2. Knowing benefit is superior to unknowing benefit. All sorts of nonsense has been justified over the years in ISKCON on the basis of unknowing benefit. That is the philosophical underpinnings for so many scams and immoral schemes.
3. No.
4. Where did yyou get the idea he didn’t advocate a vegan diet?
“In Bhagavad-gita, yogis are advised to go to a secluded place in the forest and live alone in a sanctified spot there. By Prthu Maharaja’s behavior we can understand that when he went to the forest he did not eat any cooked food sent from the city by some devotees or disciples.
“As soon as one takes a vow to live in the forest, he must simply eat roots, tree trunks, fruits, dried leaves or whatever nature provides in that way. Prthu Maharaja strictly adopted these principles for living in the forest, and sometimes he ate nothing but dried leaves and drank nothing but a little water. Sometimes he lived on nothing but air, and sometimes he ate some fruit from the trees.”
SB 4.23.5
It is not essentiall to drink milk.
Even when he did advocate milk, it was only drinking one cup of milk a day.
The point is that cows are supposed to be protected. If someone pdrinks milk they have an obligation to protect cows. Emergency measure of drinking slaughtered cows milk is not meamt to be made dominant amd [ermanent dogma.
Devotees have choices.
I hope you have a plan to cover the cost of protecting the calf for the next twenty years. My point is that devotees consuming mass market milk could help you support that calf and in that way balance the necessity of drinking blood milk.
April 11, 2008 at 4:44 pm
It sounds like you’re view then is that although Krishna likely accepts the offering, He would not prefer it because of the mistreatment of cows involved.
Of course, Krishna has no need for milk from earthly cows; but He encourages such offerings because of the devotional relationships. Whether there is a benefit to the cows would seem to depend on whether our offering of the cows’ milk does something to develop the relationship between Krishna and the cows who produced the milk. I can’t say with authority but it seems hard to argue that it wouldn’t help that.
Given that Krishna is known as Govinda and Gopala, I really don’t understand the why cows are in such horrible suffering, except that is their karma as former cow-killers. I was a vegan and an animal rights activist before I knew there was a Hare Krishna movement. I learned from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings that the cow is our mother, and that it is natural and nice to drink the mother’s milk, and that we must protect her to the extent possible. Actually we cannot even protect ourselves except to understand that we are not this material body, so our attempts to protect unknown cows somewhere by boycotting milk could hardly be very effective. Even I may be killed any moment, so how can I promise anyone protection? One may argue whether Krishna is more pleased by our renouncing milk or our use of milk to engage the cow in devotional service, but I learned the latter from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings on yukta vairagya. Srila Prabhupada also said milk provides important nutrients for brain development. It seems significant to me that almost every vegan I’ve known, other than a few devotees, has been an atheist. If their renunciation of milk is superior to our acceptance of it, why can’t these compassionate souls understand basic spiritual principles like the existence of God?
On one hand with varnashrama, we’re talking about directly protecting certain cows, and on the other hand we’re talking about boycotting ordinary dairies to indirectly protect other cows. The varnasharma clearly gives a tremendous benefit in many ways, but I’m not at all convinced that boycotting ordinary dairies would help the cows there.
I mentioned that we have a pregnant cow, and presently we buy raw milk from an organic dairy. (I would happily pay top dollar for milk from protected cows, but even the Gita-nagari temple near where I live buys milk from a karmi dairy farmer.) I imagine those purchases will soon stop. But forget our cow for a moment. If I wanted to do something for the cows at that dairy, what would be the best way to do it? I could quit buying milk as in a boycott, but I highly doubt that would do anything at all. It sounds like one of those “unknowing benefits” that we never see. If it hurt the farmer’s bottom-line, he might sell his cows to an agribusiness where they will lose their pasture to suffer 24/7 in a smelly barn. It’s a realistic scenario, considering that it is cheaper to raise cows in worse conditions, to a point. These things we cannot predict very well. Gandhi also thought he could promote ahimsa beyond what Kali yuga would allow, and it backfired. I heard Srila Prabhupada used the word “natihimsa,” if I remember correctly, meaning minimizing harm to the extent possible.
Another approach could be to cultivate a relationship with the farmer. Call him and ask to visit the farm. Talk to him about cows. Act like a human being rather than a market force, and soften him up a little with friendly talk appreciating cows. That seems to me like a more positive approach, and it would be a lot easier to do as a regular customer than as a boycotting vegan.
I don’t think that quote about Maharaj Prthu is at all defining for the question of drinking milk. I don’t know any devotees who have taken a vow to live in the forest, though Srila Prabhupada said we could do that if we can’t tolerate the presence of women, noting, “But then how will our preaching go on?” (paraphrased). To say that we don’t need milk and can live on dry leaves may be true, but dry tree leaves don’t make the kind of diet that would facilitate preaching, doing service, raising families, or much else.
Preaching that we are renouncing milk because devotees are unable to protect cows even with a God named Gopala hardly seems like it would be effective. I’m not saying you’re preaching that, but it seems what the vegan Hare Krishna reform group seems to be saying. Instead I preach that we do what we can to engage the cows in Krishna’s service, including offering their milk to Him, while doing what we can to give them shelter on our farms. I would say both are important, but I’m very hesitant to drop one whether as punishment or incentive.
I’m sorry if this is too much rambling. I greatly appreciate your strong commitment to cow protection and the opportunity to discuss. Hare Krishna.
April 14, 2008 at 8:33 am
If unknowing benefit is so good for the living entities, why not take up robbing people and give the money to Krishna? They will all benefit.
As for all your arguments against boycotting milk, they are mostly straw man arguments. I never advocate that.
What I am opposed to is the complacency that devotees fall into thinking it is acceptable to offer such milk and not do anything to change the situation for the better.
IF it is necessary to offer blood milk, then donate to cow protection programs.
Then giving protection to cows is there, even if not the exact cow you get the milk from.
As for brain tissue argument, I will stipulate for sake of discussion that is valid. All the benefits of milk drinking are obtained in the first daily glass of milk Beyond that it is simply sense gratification.
While the cow may benefit, the drinkers’ karma is not exempted, IMHO.
Taht is why SP said one glass daily.
April 15, 2008 at 1:50 am
Your argument is sound, Madhava Gosh Prabhu.
Thank you. You have helped me to identify a flaw in my thinking and realize I am indeed consuming “blood milk”. So I have followed your suggestion and taken the link to your cow protection page and made a donation.
By the way, where can I find more details on the cow protection program? And do you know where I can procure ghee from any protected cows?
April 15, 2008 at 8:26 am
Thanks for the donation.
I am trying to get a website up for GEETA. We have the hosting and domain name but no budget for hiring anyone and it is an ascending process for me.
I have met with one devotee who is going to set it up for GEETa using Drupal so once it is there it can be updated easily.
Do you live in the US? For now, the best way would be to come and visit.
Sorry about the ghee, no place that I know of. That is why the using the carbon offset philosophy is most practical at this time.
We can dream of a better way but we need to accept the realities we are dealing with.
April 16, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Madhava Gosh prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krishna.
I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood your position, as indicated by your summarizing my arguments against the vegan diet as “straw man.” Maybe I should just stop there, but it’s only because of my respect for your work that I’m interested to discuss this subject with you. Although I love cow protection, it seemed to me that you had been admonishing devotees for accepting milk without giving enough laksmi to cow protection programs, and I thought that was not fair. I don’t know what to think about your equating devotees’ offering commercial milk to Krishna with robbing people on His behalf, but I do not find that a fair comparison at all. Still I think we are in agreement on 99.5% but discussing the other 0.5% for the sake of perfection.
On your donation page you’ve quoted Srimad Bhagavatam as saying “it is the duty of every householder to have cows and bulls as household paraphernalia,” but you immediately call it “not practical.” Many good things may seem impractical, but if one has it as a priority it is not impossible. When I first desired to care for a cow, I was just beginning a family and struggling to support them in deep poverty, but step by step I was able to earn more money (I enforce environmental laws now) and buy a home with land for a cow. I know I’ve probably irritated you a little so the least I can do is offer some donation (OK, donation accomplished.) but I don’t have much to spend after our cow Krishna Priya ate about $500 in hay this winter, not to mention the other animals or the rising costs of everything.
“What I am opposed to is the complacency that devotees fall into thinking it is acceptable to offer such milk and not do anything to change the situation for the better.”
Of course service to Krishna is also service to cows, as watering the root is the only way to properly get water to the leaves. I can easily see how the distribution of Srila Prabhupada’s books, for example, benefit cows, even if the laksmi collected doesn’t go directly to cow protection programs. How many people have become vegetarian since reading Srila Prabhupada’s books, would you guess? Naturally, serving cows for Krishna’s pleasure is very nice, but in the material world our abilities are very limited. We do what we can, and it is never enough. We cannot even maintain our own material bodies against the force of time, although we can use what we have in Krishna’s service. Krishna has given me one cow to protect, and we’ve asked Him for one more to give her a companion and so my kids can grow up milking a cow and all that; but I cannot stop another farmer from killing his cows no matter what I do, boycotting commercial milk notwithstanding. Believe me; I was an animal rights activist (and a vegan) before becoming a devotee. Since the benefit to cows offered by avoiding commercial milk is speculative and questionable, I am more inclined to maintain a diet that enables me to keep up my service. And I work hard to protect cows every day although today is the first time I’ve given a monetary donation. I’m working not only to maintain myself, but a pregnant wife, four kids, a cow, three sheep, two goats, and about a dozen smaller animals. It’s a lot to do, and I find that milk helps me physically in a lot of ways that makes this possible. Today on Ekadasi there is both yogurt and cheese in the lunch I’m offering to Krishna. If it means that I am myself making karma while helping cows to go back to Godhead, I don’t understand how that is possible but in any case it is worth it.
My concern is that criticizing devotees is very risky business, and it can be disruptive to lay a guilt trip on devotees over doing one kind of service instead of another. If one’s method of cow protection involves criticizing those who do not donate laksmi or renounce milk, then I’m afraid it would be an offense. (Actually I have some expertise in the subject of offenses, mostly as a perpetrator.) I hope the vegan advocates do not unnecessarily create another division in the Hare Krishna movement in spite of our same goal. I don’t mean you personally, but I’ve felt this elsewhere.
Which reminds me, every time I discuss these topics with a vegan-advocating devotee, they make an insulting remark like, “I hope you have a plan to cover the cost of protecting the calf for the next twenty years.” Of course I am doing my best, just as I do my best to protect my children and everyone I can, and I hope it’s enough. I hope your cow protection does very well too.
Hare Krishna.
April 21, 2008 at 8:53 am
“Although I love cow protection, it seemed to me that you had been admonishing devotees for accepting milk without giving enough laksmi to cow protection programs, and I thought that was not fair.”
Perhaps my presentation is flawed and seems too guilt trippy. I see it as more raising awareness that the possibility exists to protect cows and that we aren’t limited just because we are in the cities.
“I don’t know what to think about your equating devotees’ offering commercial milk to Krishna with robbing people on His behalf, but I do not find that a fair comparison at all.”
I was using an extreme example, but the underlying principle is the same. It was considered okay to do scamkirtan because the person money was gotten from benefited unknowingly. Ugata sukrete is the sanskrit term for it.
In any case, I am not saying the cow isn’t benefited, I am saying that is not sufficient enough to justify complacency about the very real cruelty that commercial milk production engenders. We can do more.
“I know I’ve probably irritated you a little so the least I can do is offer some donation (OK, donation accomplished.) but I don’t have much to spend after our cow Krishna Priya ate about $500 in hay this winter, not to mention the other animals or the rising costs of everything.”
I have been dealing with this for years and don’t get irritated that easily. I know this education campaign is for the long haul and the inertia is firmly in place of not supporting cow protection.
I do thank you for the donation. Everything I do for the cows is pro bono, FYI.
However, you are not my target demographic. You actually are pulling off caring for cows so you are the exception. I am aiming the carbon offset model of cow protection to devotees who live in circumstance where they are unable to do hands on protection.
“but I cannot stop another farmer from killing his cows no matter what I do, boycotting commercial milk notwithstanding”
First, I have never advocated boycotting milk. I have advocated trying to adhere to the 1-2 cups a day guideline Srila Prabhupada laid out which many devotees exceed on a regular basis, myself included many days.
However, in a free market society, cows are bred to meet demand. If the demand lessens, fewer calves are born, and less cows slaughtered. So a boycott would help.
“How many people have become vegetarian since reading Srila Prabhupada’s books, would you guess?”
SP’s books and feast programs have probably been the major factor in the increase in vegetarianism in the US IMHO.
“My concern is that criticizing devotees is very risky business, and it can be disruptive to lay a guilt trip on devotees over doing one kind of service instead of another. “
I am not saying one kind over another – I am saying one doesn’t preclude the other. I am saying devotees can do any service in the urban/suburban lifestyle they feel they need to do and still serve the cows.
I think an even riskier business is thinking not being involved in cow protection and still drinking commercial milk is okay.
SP links irrevocably links cow protection with milk drinking:
“The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His instructions of Bhagavad-gita,
advises go-raksya, which means cow protection. The cow should be protected,
milk should be drawn from the cows, and this milk should be prepared in
various ways. One should take ample milk, and thus one can prolong one’s
life, develop his brain, execute devotional service, and ultimately attain
the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As it is essential to
get food grains and water by digging the earth, it is also essential to
give protection to the cows and take nectarean milk from their milk bags.”
SB 8.6.12
What happens if we try to have “brahminical” society without cow protection?:
“Without protection of cows, brahminical culture cannot be maintained; and without brahminical culture, the aim of life cannot be fulfilled.”
Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.5
I take that literally.
“Which reminds me, every time I discuss these topics with a vegan-advocating devotee, they make an insulting remark like, “I hope you have a plan to cover the cost of protecting the calf for the next twenty years.” “
Again, I am not vegan advocating (though I am also not vegan denigrating). I certainly didn’t mean that to be an insult. I meant it to be encouraging.
If anything, I would encourage you to set up a trust fund and collect money from devotees who can’t personally protect cows hands on. Make the calf the beneficiary of the trust. Then, if you ever leave your body prematurely or become disabled, the care of the calf would be guaranteed.
That would create a service opportunity for devotees by donating and hopefully could grow your program beyond the limits of your own income producing capacities. We need all the programs we can get.
April 21, 2008 at 10:44 am
Thank you for taking the time to answer my concerns and clarify your views. Actually I can understand now that I was a little grumpy the past few weeks and regret that I gave you undeserved criticism. It’s an interesting idea about the trust fund. Our program is pretty small and is basically a small family farm, except that the animals are part of the family and don’t generate any income. Everything apparently depends on my paycheck, though if I actually believed that I wouldn’t have dared to have kids what to speak of a herd of farm animals. It’s very nice to get into cooperative service with devotees, giving what I can and also depending on them.
Keep up your excellent work. Hare Krishna.
April 22, 2008 at 8:00 am
No problem, at least I know someone is reading .
:-)
Good Luck with your program.